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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:10 pm 
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So far, we've seen 3 suggestions about how to deal with the card advantage generated by playing a "free" basic building:

1. Forfeit your next draw / redraw the "basic building generator" (Jed's suggestion).
2. Discard a card from your hand for each basic building played (cylone's suggestion).
3. Just let players play free basics, and don't worry about the card advantage (Boozy's suggestion).

Here are some thoughts on the pros and cons of each idea:

Suggestion 1 (Jed):
The main con is that it gives players slightly less flexibility. Specifically, they will always draw one more basic building then they actually need. However, this isn't too horrible, because it will happen to everyone, once per game (either on turn 1, if they don't want basics at all, or at some later point, if they do play basics).
The only strategy that is invalidated by this system is playing a turn 1 basic building, followed by a 1-domain domain-giver on turn 2 (say, Hardarck's Throne or Trade Routes). You will not autodraw the domain-giver on turn 1 (because you can't play it), nor on turn 2 (because you are busy redrawing your basic). Of course, this is only an issue if you actually plan to play a 2-domain card on turn 2 (otherwise just wait until you autodraw your domain giver on turn 3).
Overall, this seems like the best of the three, but see below.

Suggestion 2 (cylone):
This looks like the most flexible system from the point of view of a veteran. It avoids both problems presented by Jed's system.
The main con is this:
Beginners (and some casual old timers) don't like having to choose cards from their hand to discard. It's just not a fun decision to make (an issue I also have with cycling, incidentally, but cycling can just be ignored by beginners).
The suggested system will make discarding an integral part of the game, regardless of deck choice (unless you don't play basics, which isn't really an option for a beginner). Worse, such a choice will have to be made on the very first turn of every single game.
I believe many new players will find such a first encounter with the game unappealing.
This might not be an acceptable cost.

Suggestion 3 (boozie):
This combines the strengths of both systems: it's flexible, and doesn't require unfun decisions.
However, basic building spam is reported to be viable (even if not quite broken), so it would seem that adding a free card to each play will push it over the top. More generally, it will make basic buildings overpowered compared to other buildings and domain givers (they effectively have "draw a card" tacked on).
This doesn't mean we should dismiss the suggestion out of hand. It can be implemented if basic buildings are nerfed in some other way, to balance the extra card. That would probably mean either reducing health, or increasing flux cost (or some combination of the two). Note, however, that increasing costs would help with general cost-effectiveness, but not with "spam" (because salvage will just repay the cost).
This might work, but needs more thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:00 pm
Posts: 124
yaron wrote:
....don't like having to choose cards from their hand to discard...
This might not be an acceptable cost....


Ok i wasnt aware that it could be such a problem. Maybe ive been playing Scorched horizons too much.
But it shouldnt really be that hard, discard those 3domain cards for on the first few turns for a graveyard, or do it with some card that doesnt seem immediately useful.
Its just like cycling, though you mention you dont like that as well.
I mean the game largely revolves around making a choice, cast this card or that one.
Though if people think it would induce analysis paralysis, then yes it is not an acceptable cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 11:13 pm
Posts: 75
Another thought is having a toggle to autodraw a basic building or not that way you don't get a card jammed down your throat round 2 (and throughout the game) that is undesired.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:46 pm 
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Posts: 124
Boozie, well more or less you do want that building, though usually its turn 3 or so. The bigger problem is often which one (in multi-domain decks), or if youd rather an alternate thingy (faceless, weather vane, throne, altar...."fated" stuff)

Thats why "fated" + button looks good to me.
Basicaly your starting hand would look like: 6cards+1fated, and you can switch one for a basic building...or not.

Also its flexible:
ie. DL/MF deck. All dl cards in hand. But you want to drop a dwarven hall for your 2nd building.

Also 3-4 domain decks? slightly easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:54 am 
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Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 11:13 pm
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cylone wrote:
Boozie, well more or less you do want that building, though usually its turn 3 or so.


I don't agree with that statement at all. Getting a basic building rammed down my throat round two or even three is awful compared to the idea of me drawing a card I want in my deck especially in the early stages of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:34 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:00 pm
Posts: 124
I was actually more implying about getting the sweet sweet second domain (via basic, or alternate "fated" domain givers ).
Of course if wanting to play with one domain well into the midgame (or whole game), then yes.

Actually if you made a deck without any "fated" cards, youd draw 7cards (switch one for a basic building) and never have to draw a domain giver (basic/blahblah) again if not wanted.

Youd also never run into a problem of drawing graveyard,graveyard. (Lets say only other domain stuff is altar of ix). Instead youd draw 6cards+1altar. (can switch altar for graveyard), next turn guaranteed draw of altar.

Also to reiterate this switch can only be made once per turn, so salvagebuildingspam is the same as it currently is +lots of cards now that mess with that strategy anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:48 pm 
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cylone wrote:
I was actually more implying about getting the sweet sweet second domain (via basic, or alternate "fated" domain givers ).


Well I think we are looking at this from two different angles. My inital response of not wanting a basic building jammed down my throat round 2 was about Jed's proposal which you made your response to. So I assumed we were still talking along those lines. I do not want to play my basic building round 1 and autodraw another basic building especially if I already have a fated card in my hand from the first 7 cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:40 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:55 am
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Option 4: Go back to the original. I really think that was the best and shouldn't have changed. If that left Fissure, Negate and Tremor too strong, then they need to change.

Option 5: Keep autodraw as is but change salvage to prevent abuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:32 pm 
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cylone wrote:
Ugh, lotsa topics, hope i post in the right one:
Without too much detail here's what sounds simple and satisfying for my tired brain right now:

-An extra button next to Cycle - lets call it "Domain"
-You dont draw basic buildings
-Once a turn click "Domain" button and replace a card in hand with basic (hall,magma,grave...) building (choose).
-No need to put basic buildings in deck
-Any card in hand is therefore potentially a basic building once per turn
-Other stuff (diplomats,throne....) autodraws if no other autodraw card in hand. (that "Fated" card)
-Somebody suggested Fated trait on domain giving cards (diplomats, throne)- very good idea for the new players especially

simple and satisfying



Yes im quoting myself, and dammit how many autodraw topics are there LOL

Anyway I still think this idea could work well, but if discarding is a problem, then how about this modification:

-Instead of choosing and discarding, clicking "domain" button makes your next draw a basic building of your choice. (A pop-up similiar to Diplomat appears and youre next draw is a groove, dwarven hall.....).


EDIT for first turn:
-ugh add a 0th turn? lol... or slightly more complicated to explain:
-Also i guess this pop-up happens the first thing you start a match without clicking a button, you check your (6)cards, click on the symbol and your 7th is what you clicked.

EDIT EDIT
-to allow full non-basic building decks, for the first turn ONLY, add an extra symbol to the pop-up for "fated" card.


And remember you still get your non-basic autodraws the standard way, without having to suffer drawing a basic building when you dont need one, AND without suffering from not getting it when you want one.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed new method of Autodraw
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:01 pm
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sorry cylone, but my version seems easier to me.. almost the same, just easier to explain.. :(


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