Talk about changing cards in the seed set has got me thinking - What exactly does need changed?

The ability to change cards is one of the advantages that The Far Wilds has over other card games. Cards will need changed, that's inevitable. Rules might need to be changed too. Even after 15 years Magic the Gathering adds rules and errata that change the functionality of cards. These cards have to be looked up online in order to correctly play with them; it's an inconvenience, but it's part of the game. Change is not necessarily bad or unfair.

While I understand that a game like this can never be completely balanced, I do believe that the power level between the best cards and the worst cards can be minimized. Example: There are few instances where I would rather play Zombie over Red Imp or Crypt Doctor. However, Zombie is not an awful card, and it can get better if a card that buffs other Undead is released. To me, this is an acceptable power difference.

On to the changes.


The Nerfs

Let me preface this by saying that I think only cards that can't be balance by releasing future cards should be nerfed.

Fissure: Change "Lose 4 Glory." to "Additional cost to play: 4 Glory."
This is the change that jed is considering making and I think it's a good one. Fissure is a card that can randomly win you games when you play it, and it currently has no real drawback. There's not really any way to balance this by releasing future cards that doesn't either mention it specifically or hit other weaker cards as well.

Negate: 1M - 2M
I really think that a change needs to be made to Negate. I honestly think that I have won more games because of Negate than because of Fissure. It's the answer to everything. Not only that, but it's cheaper than all of the less versatile answers also. I really think Negate would still be played if it cost that extra flux. 3 might not go into every deck that can provide MF domain, but I'm fine with that.

Astridian Forum: 3X - 4X
I'm sure a lot of you are thinking, "WTF? There's nothing wrong with Astridian Forum! This guy's an idiot!" Let me explain myself. Originally I was going to suggest slightly buffing Dank Pit and Bamboo Watchtower, as both seemed somewhat weak when compared to Astridian Forum (especially Dank Pit). Then I realized that there were cards in the new set that I avoided playing with since they also seemed weak in comparison. This obviously got me thinking that the problem is Astridian Forum. Astridian Forum is the only vision granting building with cost 3 or less that didn't get nerfed during the last change. I'm starting to think that it was accidentally skipped. 5 health, 1 vision, generic domain requirements, and a reusable ability that will only get better as more ways to draw cards are released seems to be a steal for 3 flux.

Nether Plasma: Only starts with tokens when you cast it from your hand.
Again, this is jed's proposed change, and I'm fine with it. I honestly wouldn't mind if this didn't get changed, but the fact is that a Foreshadowing Ragnarok with just 3 Nether Plasma Corpses gets you 18 flux, net of 13 flux. It becomes even more ridiculous with multiple Nether Plasmas or multiple Foreshadowing Ragnaroks.


What's wouldn't be changed

Hadarck's Throne: I really believe that this card can be balanced by making more cards that deal 2 damage, and more cards that accelerate other domains.

Caravan of Dreams: Again, I think this card can be balanced by making more cards. Cards that prevent non-flux well glory and cards that prevent creatures from being moved by spells or abilities could both keep this in check.


The Buffs

Ascent: 4S - 3S
I think the majority of players agree that Ascent should cost 3S. 4S makes it nearly unplayable. This is no Lysis.

Belligerent Dryad: 3SXX - 2SX
I propose a fairly large change in cost for this card, because it's one of the worst. There's 2 cards that I think this can be compared with: Attrition and Ord Beast, both of which require only 2 domain. Attrition deals damage to creatures in your controlled zone; Dryad deals damage to figures in your (at least partially) controlled forest. Attrition does this for free, while Dryad requires a flux commitment. Ord Beast can undim and attack for 2 when you pay 2; Dryad can deal 2 by paying 2. However, Ord Beast has a bit more freedom about where it can cause its damage than the forest-bound Dryad. I think that Belligerent Dryad is weaker than both Attrition and Ord Beast. While you think Dryad would shine in a Loyal Wilds/Wider Woods deck, I've found that Attrition is usually a better choice. More forest making cards might make Dryad better, but it should still cost less than Attrition and Ord Beast.

Decomposition: 2S - 1S
This card just costs too much. The only thing that it can really be compared to is Gather Spirits, as both remove corpses. I don't think that the ability to make a forest and draw a card is more valuable than gaining 4 flux.

Axe Captain: +1 Vision
2 vision is pretty crippling. There's really no reason why Axe Captain shouldn't have 3. With 3 vision he's much closer in terms of playability to Shield Wall and Clay Ram.

Force Fence: 3MX - 2MX
Naturescaping can make 3 oceans to have a similar effect to Force Fence. These oceans are also not subject to enchantment removal. While Force Fence can block an additional space than Naturescaping, I believe that due to the incredible versatility of Naturescaping, that Force Fence should not cost more that Naturescaping does.

Barbed Necrath: 6DDX - 5DDX
I don't see this ever getting played instead of Yalrinian Fiend. It's much closer in power level to Journeyman Necromancer and Tortured Ghost. In fact, I think that Journeyman Necromancer would get the nod over Barbed Necrath more often than not. However, this goes for a higher price on the market than I expected, so some people obviously like it. Is it just a coolness factor? Because I admit that it looks pretty cool out on the battlefield.

Beckon the Bones: 2D - 1D
I don't have anything to really compare this with, but it costs just a bit too much. Early game, you're better off just playing another creature instead of paying an extra 2 flux to replay a similar one. It seems good with late game creatures, but if you're at 3 domain, Reanimate becomes a much better option.

Fire Beetle: +1 Attack
Fire Beetle's ability is very expensive. It can also be difficult to play for it to be worthwhile. It really needs the option of attacking, even if it is for a measly 1. Arc Mage has an expensive ability that does damage, and it still has the option of attacking.

Impure Impulses: Completely change the card - 3DX "Undim all uncontrolled Creatures. These Creatures are enchanted with Possession."
Since uncontrolled Creatures take their actions at the beginning of the round, this card is pretty useless unless it's played after Mass Confusion. I think it should be changed in a way that encourages you to play with uncontrolled Creatures.

Skull Catapult: +1 Range
The drawback of only attacking buildings is huge. And it can take forever to get to said buildings with a speed of 2. This card needs a little boost.

Blaze of Abrixa: "Anytime Blaze takes damage that many Flamekin are placed in random adjacent land spaces."
At 7 flux this is one of the most expensive cards in the game. Yet, it's only slightly more threatening than a Stone Mauler. It's slow, somewhat weak, and doesn't affect the game like other big creatures do. It's good against weenies, but it should do more. The easiest thing would be to just reduce its flux cost, and maybe that's what should be done. However, I like the idea of a 7-flux monster that swarms the board with underlings. With this change, it might be beneficial to Sunburst your own creature in order to attack with an additional 8 points of damage the next turn.

Epicenter: +1 Vision
This needs a little boost. After thinking of various others ways to balance it, I think that this simple buff would help quite a bit.

Guuthlun Tempest: 6EEX - 5EXX
While the Tempest can be difficult to kill, he's not worth 6. He's very limited by the 2 vision, he's susceptible to maps with bad terrain, and he can be killed by any card that moves a creature. I also don't think he warrants a double Elemental requirement.

Planar Intersection, Fire: 4EX - 3EX, remove 1 from ability cost
Paying four flux for the opportunity to pay double the cost for a Flamekin that enters play in a pseudo-random space just isn't good. This costs too much to play, and too much to activate. It might even be able to cost 2EX with the ability cost reduced.

Prodigal Entropene: +1 Health
This card is just a little lackluster. He's close to being good, but just not quite there. One reason is his ability isn't as relevant as it first appears. Of the 18 Elemental creatures in the seed set, only 13 require a base, and this includes other Prodigal Entropenes. It might be too good if it cost 3E, so I think adding a health is the better way to buff it.

Bell of Dorn: 4X - 2X
Paying 3 to undim all creatures is perfectly acceptable. However, paying 4 for the option to do so isn't so good. The cost needs to be reduced.

Power Alteration: 1X - 0X
In all honestly I think that this card is weaker than several of the 0 costing cards. With Autodraw, this type of ability isn't needed too much. It's definitely not worth spending a flux on.


Other Changes

Disenchant: 3M - 3X
The only way to get rid of enchantments is to play cards that do so; they can't be attacked and damaged by creatures. Since the only way to get rid of enchantments is to play enchantment removal, it really should be available to all domains, especially since almost a 1/3 of the cards in the seed set are enchantments.

Humiliation: 2XD - "Target player loses 2 + X Glory."
This is just a formatting change that needs to be made to be like other cards. This really doesn't need mentioned, but it bothers me. I can be very particular about certain


Since it appears that I would change a lot, some of you might be getting the impression that I don't like this game. That is far from true. In fact, aside from Humiliation, I would only change 22 of 286 cards. That's less than 8%. I am content with more than 92% of the cards. I can't make this claim with any other collectible card game. It's the fact that I think so few cards need changed that I feel like I can mention them.

Now, I don't expect all of these changes to be implemented; I'm not even saying that these changed need to be made. This is simply a (relatively) small list of the cards in the seed set that I'm not quite happy with.

Anyway, please let me know what you agree/disagree with. Believe it or not, I like to be proven wrong when I think something is too weak. Sorry for the super-long post, I started to say my bit but then felt I needed to justify each and every change I'd like to see. It turned into quite a project.

I think Prodigal Entropene would be fine at 3E if its speed went down to 3. Elemental is severely lacking in the generally good first turn creature department, and the new set does absolutely nothing to help with that.

About throne: I think adding a lot of cards that do 2 damage to buildings cheaply would just cause new problems. Altar of Ix and Great Oak for example would suffer from that as well, which is not needed. I think balancing cards that are too strong by making a few new strong cards that deal with them easily is a slippery slope and can lead to rock, paper & scissor situations, where matchups pretty much decide outcomes of games.

But nice discussion opener, and to me most your ideas seem good. Especially ascent back to 3. Comparing to lysis makes ascent seem like total garbage, and I think it's a fair comparison: difference between D X and S isnt that big, since most decks get to second domain early anyway. When talking about spells, domain requirement only makes a noticable difference when it's 3 domain levels vs 2, or 2 with only 1 aligned vs double aligned. It's different with creatures of course.

I hope jed doesn't mind people openly expressing their views on balance matters. I know I've done that a lot too.

Thanks Uncas for the well-thought (very long) post It stimulates discussion (pointless maybe, as the seed set is "almost" declared fixed... but who knows).


Some random comments (few cards I commented already in Jed thread on possible changes and I won't repeat the comments):

- negate: M2 is reasonable but I'd rather see negate nerfed in that it cannot cancel buildings (someone I don't remember proposed this few weeks ago)

- ascent is overcosted for what it does, but as it was it limited the use of big creatures. I am thus happy with the current flux cost 4S.

- I agree the dryad should cost less, not sure how much, maybe 3SX. It deserves a buff but the new forest-creation cards of the new set may stimulate its use already.

- I think skull catapult is quite scary as it is already

- I'm against planar intersection, fire ability to cost 1. "Infinite" creatures should come with a price. Think what you can do placing it next to your opponent base.

- abrixia heals itself at cost 1 per HP. 7 flux to play it sounds reasonable to me.

- having played it for a while, I agree the strength of guthuulun is very terrain-related. I think it looks like a game changer but in fact this happened quite rarely to me. Still, it is definitely strong. A 1 flux reduction may be fair. BTW, it fits well (thematically) in a mainly elemental deck with its ocean-creation cards.

- not sure about disenchant. I'd rather see different ways to remove enchantments given to other domains (this was partially fulfilled with the new expansion but I think few more cards are needed here).

About throne: yeah I tend to agree with what headshot said. But there are more ways to deal with throne in Borderlands. We also don't want to give this type of acceleration to other domains since then there is never a reason to play at level 1 domain.

Ascent: think of it like a disenchant.

Negate: I'm on the fence about this. Leaning toward making it 2M.

Belligerent Dryad: Much better with borderlands. Remember this thing can attack buildings.

Bell of Dorn: contemplating changing it to 3X

Power Alteration: I've been wanting to change this card completely for a long time.

Fissure: It's gone back and forth so many times, it's either way too strong or way too weak. balance would be great. I've made my opinion on the other thread, but for another take, how about same as it is now but it can't target domain giving figures.

Astridian Forum: I think Forum and other opponent-discard cards should put the discarded cards at the bottom of the deck. for obvious domain-denial reasons

Belligerent Dryad: What Jed said, it's really much better in the new set. we'll see.

Decomposition: 2S - 1S
How about 0S?

Axe Captain: +1 Vision
sounds good to me

Force Fence: 3MX - 2MX
I would agree here too

Beckon the Bones: 2D - 1D
Agree, it's a worthless card right now.

Skull Catapult: +1 Range
It's plenty deadly as is I think.

Blaze of Abrixa: One word: Plague. Sure he's still expensive, but having a flamekin-spawning creature is pretty kick ass.

Epicenter: +1 Vision
agreed

Guuthlun Tempest: 6EEX - 5EXX
Tempest is going to be a whole lot more deadly in the new set with new ways to create water.

Planar Intersection, Fire: 4EX - 3EX, remove 1 from ability cost
One of the two proposed changes, yes.

Prodigal Entropene: +1 Health
Well, he used to be just a 'base' not an 'elemental base' so he used to be more useful. Grug beat me with a nasty entropene + zep deck. I think -1 flux and another -1 to put the cost in line is better so you can play him first turn.

Power Alteration: 1X - 0X
I just wish you could play it on your opp's domain.

Disenchant: 3M - 3X
Not a bad idea at all.

Ascent: On a second thought, anything that removes a creature from the play area for 2 or 3 flux might prevent people playing expensive creatures. Even a 3 flux ascent could cause huge headache to 5+ flux creatures like blunderbuss or Barkskin.

So how about keeping it at 4 flux but changing the card? I have 2 ideas for this:

A) Remove target creature. Its controller gains glory equal to the amount of the flux cost of the creature.

B)Target creature is put on top of its owners army / deck.

I think both make sense thematically and would not cause any problems.

So the consensus seems to be that Ascent at 3S would be too strong. That's fine. However, it is definitely not good enough at 4S. A change needs to be made. There's a couple of things that could be done:
-Changing the cost to 3SX. Is it more devastating to play against than Icy Encasement? The answer often depends on what creature got neutralized and what deck you play.
-headshot's suggestion of putting the creature on top of the library.
-Adding "Draw a card." I like the mini-theme of cantrips (MTG term for cards that replace themselves by having "Draw a card.") that Sylvan has. This could continue in that manner.

Prodigal Entropene: 4E - 3E, -1 Speed
This seems to be what everyone thinks would be best.

Putting a Black Plague on a Blaze of Abrixa does sound very kick-ass. However, despite this newly revealed level of kick-assery, I still don't see the cost justified. Am I missing something? Is it really better than Epic Veteran, another high cost creature with 3 speed, 3 vision, and good survivability? I've only played against Blaze of Abrixa a couple of times, but the "Oh Sh*t!" factor that should accompany these big brawlers just isn't as high for Blaze as it is for others. I dunno, if everyone else sees this justifying the 7 flux price tag, I'll just credit my discontent of this card to personal preference.

The ability to make a creature every round, like Planar Intersection, Fire is capable of, is powerful. However, the cost just seems a bit too high. Journeyman Necromancer is able make a similar-powered creature every round also. With Journeyman Necromancer you also get a strong creature to accompany this ability, while with Planar Intersection you get an enchant space that you must see in order to activate. If everybody's against lowering the activation cost, what about removing (Dim) from the activation? That way the ability could be played the turn it's cast, and it could be activated multiple times per turn. Realistically I don't see this being activated more than twice per turn, as if a player is able to consistently activate it three times per turn, there's a good chance they could win even without this card.

About Disenchant, the reason I think it should be unaligned, is that there are only so many different cards that can be made that say "Destroy target Enchantment." Look at the variety of creature-neutralizing cards there are: Lysis, Ascent, Entangle, Icy Encasement, Sunburst, Cloudburst, Volcano, etc. There's a significant amount of difference between what each card does, and how each is played. Enchantment removal cards will almost inevitably say "Destroy target enchantment" on the card itself. Then it might require an additional cost (Discard a card, Sacrifice a Creature) or have a small additional effect (Draw a card, Create a Forest). But ultimately, they'd all be minor variations of the same card.

While additional forest making cards make Belligerent Dryad more useful, it still suffers from the problem of having to enchant a controlled forest. Yes, the Dryad can hit buildings, but to do so you have to have a forest that stretches from your controlled zone to your opponent's, and this is not something easily done. I could see the cost somewhat justified if it were just enchant forest, but as it is it really needs to come down a domain level. While 2SX might be too much of a reduction, 3SX should be fine. I do believe that it's comparable to Ord Beast, as both can do 2 damage to a non-Aloft figure for 2. Belligerent Dryad might be more difficult to remove, but unlike the Dryad, Ord Beast doesn't really require any other cards to be good. Ord Beast can also be enhanced by cards like Training and Demonic Surge. I think that 3SX would be an acceptable cost for Belligerent Dryad.

Speaking of Training, I forgot to add that to my list. (It's probably a good thing that I don't run the zoo.)

Training: 2MX - 3MX
I won't say much about this one, as everybody knows how good it is, and that if you play creatures you should probably play training. This change would put it slightly behind Morph, which I think is a good fit, as Morphing a dying, say, Elven Scout for a Goose Tamer is pretty close to Training that same dying Elven Scout.

Good discussion so far.