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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:26 pm 
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I think what we have now works ok once we get used to it. Although I messed up in draft last night and was stuck with a Blind Assassin and no way to get my second DL domain, I could have avoided that easily...it isn't that much of a burden to squeeze 1-2 extra cards into a 40-card army.

At the same time, I forgot how tight deck construction was in the original format in draft and needing to put in the basic building makes things like Great Oaks, Bone Fortresses, and Altars more difficult to fit in. I suggest we run with it for a week and see, but we could also implement the basic domain check list during deck construction. That way if you want to autodraw a certain kind of basic building you do and if you don't, you don't.

I don't think multi-faction decks need help. Most EC winning armies are dual faction. I'd like to see every faction and faction pair be competitive, but we need to nail down basic mechanics like this before we can worry too much about balancing (other than in cases of extremely strong or weak cards).


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:06 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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I must be missing something, because I don't see any issue with multicolored decks with this autodraw.

I used to play a monoDL deck that splashed MF for disenchant. I would get the MF domain with a diplomat.

However, when the first "new" autodraw iteration came into being, the system would autodraw Halls, which I didn't want OR need.

With the current version, this isn't a problem.

You can design a multi-colored deck that works well with this latest iteration. Let's say I build a deck that has single domain elves, runs Lysis for creature control, and leads up to an Earthquake. In this deck, I have no one domain DL card and no one or two domain MF cards. I never want to draw any other basic building than a Grove, as that would slow down my momentum. I want my order of domain playing to be first turn Grove, then Altar, then Diplomat.

I am very much in favor of a system that allows me to do this.

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Altren wrote:
I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

|| The Rise of the DCC | Plasmatium Netherious | Tastes Like Chicken | The Astridian Conspiracy ||

Guild -> | Platypus Rising|


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Keyser: I think you missed my point. I'm not saying that one can't play two colored decks any more. I have many two colored decks that still works, but I have many more that are now unplayable. It would be to great a job to give all the examples, but i can name one: In one deck I use 1.round observatory and 2.round mahal. I can not play with imperial keep in this deck, because then I will draw that instead of my observatory. If you havent made any such decks, please just take my word for it that many of them exist and that that they are now unplayable.

As I've already said: The new autodraw is taking away some of the possibilites and therefore the diversity of decks we can play. The thing i suggested in my last post will fix this I think, and I can't see why anyone would be against that fix.


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:41 pm 
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The Dark Platypus
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Cave: I like your idea so long as that External List does NOT happen until your deck is exhausted of it's domain giving cards.


For example... if you plan on using Diplomat for MF and no MF buildings in your deck, when and only when your deck is 1) out of Diplomats and other MF sources and 2) you have a card requiring MF domain in hand and 3) you don't already have MF domain in play, then and only then should Autodraw draw a Hall from the External List.

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Altren wrote:
I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

|| The Rise of the DCC | Plasmatium Netherious | Tastes Like Chicken | The Astridian Conspiracy ||

Guild -> | Platypus Rising|


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:58 pm 
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Keyser: yea, Cave's option as I understand it says draw cards from External list once you're out of Fated cards in deck - or have no base in play and neither in your deck.

+you gave a really nice example:
I have that Grove, 1 Altar and 1 Diplomat in deck, with plan to cast Earthquake later on.
Once I cast it - I suddenly cast any DL card as Altar's destroyed and with current autodraw I have no way how to draw anything to provide me that DL domain. Or if your Diplo gets destroyed you won't be able to cast that Earthquake..
I believe that's also the drawback Cave is talking about.
As I've said already, I'm about to play Negate / Fissure deck just to get rid of those domains thus getting rid of like 1/2 of opponent's deck. :) (that's anti-Mahal version, but of course on Altar 1 tremor is enough..)


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Keyser: I think what you described is what I want too. If I understand it right it is the way it is now, only it uses another way of deciding what cards that is in your list of external cards. We keep the diversity and everybody should be happy:)


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:27 pm 
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Well first I wish that you guys would have given this feedback during those tests I had up. But anyway...
Cave: That makes other decks unplayable such as decks without bases. (Also it seems the same as the previous system?) The decks you are talking about it hurting I think are still playable just not quite as good. Is it really that bad if you draw a keep instead of an observatory first?

I really thought the best solution was the Home building one but almost all the top players hated it so I reconsidered it.

The only other way I see is the home building as a button (this is equivalent to an 8 card hand with the home buildings in it)


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:24 am 
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yaron wrote:
Is the following behaviour intended?

I start the game with a Dwarven Hold and a Great Oak (I have one of each in my deck).
I build the Hold, and immediately autodraw another one from outside my deck.

Now, I do have cards with double MF domain in hand, so drawing a second Dwarven Hold makes sense. However, I was under the impression that as long as I don't play (or cycle) the domain card still in my hand (Great Oak), I shouldn't autodraw another one.

I think this method (not autodrawing if you have a domain in hand) is preferable, because it doesn't clog the hand with too many domains, and it is also more likely to give the domain cards needed (for example if autodraw waited until the I cast the Great Oak to give me my third domain card, that card would be Astridian Diplomat, not a Dwarven Hold from outside the deck).


Just bumping the question, because it seems this behaviour carried over to the new system.
Jed, is this a bug or a feature?


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:46 am 
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jed wrote:
Well first I wish that you guys would have given this feedback during those tests I had up. But anyway...
Cave: That makes other decks unplayable such as decks without bases. (Also it seems the same as the previous system?) The decks you are talking about it hurting I think are still playable just not quite as good. Is it really that bad if you draw a keep instead of an observatory first?

I really thought the best solution was the Home building one but almost all the top players hated it so I reconsidered it.

The only other way I see is the home building as a button (this is equivalent to an 8 card hand with the home buildings in it)



Sorry for not writing anything before it was to late, but I got so confused by all the suggestions that I lost track of what was going on. Anyways...

I understand that decks without bases will be hurt by my suggestion, but I havent seen many such decks so I dont think the loss is that great. Anyway i think it is better that nerfing/destroying a much bigger number of decks.

As to drawing a keep instead of the observatory: I use the observatory + mahal + aloft pigeons to capture two bases by round two, keep would make this impossible.

As to other decks: Lets say you want to play keep first round and great oak second round. If you have a grove in your deck this will probably not happen. You can of course play without groves and hope that 3xOak + some diplomats will keep that sylvan domain, but you will never be safe and it will be a much worse deck than just playing with one Great Oak. I could give lots of other examples, but I trust that this example is enough.

PS: I like the button idea.


Last edited by CaveTroll on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive Autodraw Thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:20 am
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Another idea is to chose what kind of basic domain buildings that should be in the external list when you make the deck. Then you can chose none if you dont want to draw any, and you get to autodraw buildings even if you don't have them in your deck.


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