@jed

Ok that sounds fair. I know i probably sounded like a whiny brat but I seriously just bought the BoS like a day ago.

It all came sudden. It would be nice to have a longer notice on changes.

I said it in the lobby earlier, and Ill say it here, you just killed it for me.

looking over the changes I see a lot I dont like.

I dont want to spend money here anymore. I was going to buy another $20 next week in cards, probably through domain, but now Im not going to. Its not that one card I have got nerfed, it was that 20 other cards I bought to support the strategy I was building are now worthless too.

I had thought hey, I can maybe make 5-10$$ on cards down the road, these cards have real value, but not anymore, there is no investment here, things are too unstable.

I may have spent a good $100 by the end of the year here, but not now. Cards I buy today might be worthless in a few weeks. Cards I bought a month ago when I started are now useless.

It has been further pushed into "The Sylvan War". I dont find fun in that.

I think you guys killed it, and I no longer will spend money here. Im sorry if I seem harsh or overreacting, but Ive been here a month, and just when Im starting to actually build a collection that I can play and win against free players, everything I was building was destroyed.

You have made a great error here, I hope you recover from it.

Ok, I was unquestionably the most outspoken old timer on this site advocating for the Seed Set to be closed or finalized as it were, so I feel kind of obligated to respond. As a preliminary note, I haven't played in months, haven't even logged on, so I have no idea how these changes actually, physically play out. But I feel like, after hearing Jed and other bigwigs in TFW out on this decision, I understand it without necessarily agreeing. I also apologize for the length of the post, but (as my excuse for verbosity has always been in the past) I'm a law student.

I quoted FiestaVaca at the top because I believe it represents a fundamental flaw in the understanding of online card games. Many people may hate me for this, but I'll go ahead and say it: there's no such thing as a balanced card game of this nature. There will always be certain combinations of cards which work better than others in the cost-benefit analysis. As has been my belief from the beginning, it is impossible to alter a single card in this game without changing two dozen more in perhaps a fool's errand attempt at balancing. That will only increase with the number of expansions released, the assumed addition of two new domains at some point in the future, and the exponential increase in exploitable combos.

The problem with Fiesta's argument is that "option B" as it were leads to a new scenario, in which a new and different card becomes overpowered, and you have those same two options all over again. There's no such thing as a perfect option B, in which the developers modify a card to fit into the general metagame, and no other card rises to take its place. When you finally get beyond the money issue - for which Jed seems to have developed a solution - and beyond the fact that nerfs/buffs/changes affect the strategy of your deck - which, in the end, may make the game more interesting - the pursuit of a perfectly balanced game is just a waste of time and energy.

It still remains my belief that, if the ultimate goal is balance, the solution is not to change cards. Other actions - adding cards, banning cards, etc. - are the better path. I have been a supporter of more cards = more balance, the merits of which can be debated in some other forum.

ALL OF THAT BEING SAID AS AN INTRODUCTION, I support these changes not because they balance the game, but because they force the strategy into a direction that the devs I believe had in mind - and one which I believe should be the central focus of the game. Buildings take a little bit longer to get out, so you need to play a little bit more "defense" if that ever existed in TFW before. Sylvan rush becomes slightly more difficult, and the all-too-permanent effects of enchantments can in some way be countered, even if only for a turn. Does the change for Benefits of Spectacle kill the card? Not at all, but it certainly is no longer an alternative winning strategy. You still gotta conquer flux wells, you still gotta build buildings. And that, at the end of the day, is what TFW was supposed to be about in my mind.

The developers have the power and right to make changes to cards - particularly this early in the game's life - which direct the strategy in the way they had envisioned. For that reason, and that reason alone, I think these changes make sense.

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-Minds

Well said, Minds, and some others.

Sure the money thing might be an issue, but the cards don't change much in value, and even if it does, 1 gold is still only 2 cents. Not to mention, Jed's reimbursement plan...

Anyway, the changes seem fine.

The only thing I have a big problem with is that enchantments come into play dimmed. I have a problem with this because 1) the enchantments were not overpowered to begin with and 2) the reason was for consistency. Enchantments are not figures, which come into play dimmed, so why should enchantments come into play dimmed as well? Someone also mentioned earlier that corpses and whatnot don't come into play dimmed.... I dunno, this change just didn't seem to make sense to me.

good job on the changes, it will take some work to find the real broken cards now.
I'd also like to point out that only global enchantments ever came into play undimmed so Foul Termite Swarm and the like haven't been changed. The only cards this actually changed in Arid Encroachment which I do think was off since it didn't act like other enchantments.

Building changes:
Bamboo Watch Tower: 2 flux -> 3 flux
Beacon of Calendor: S -> SS
Emerald Spring: 3 flux-> 4flux, -1 health
Dank Pit: 2 flux -> 3 flux
Exhausted Mine: M -> MX + ability changed
Magnetite Beacon: 2 flux -> 3 flux
Ord Stone: no change
Walled Outpost: 3 flux -> 4 flux
Mogi Nest: 3 flux -> 4 flux
Vapor Mahal: 4 flux -> 5 flux
Foul Obelisk: D->DX

I think thats a fairly complete list of the building changes, if i missed anything or made a mistake let me know

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This is not quite true. Wandering Whorl came into play undimmed and has lost a lot of utility now that it comes into play dimmed. You probably never noticed because no one uses it because it's a marginal card (now made worse). Planar intersection, fire and The Nothing also came into play undimmed, IIRC. The only reason you noticed Arid Encroachment is because it was used since it was a useful card before hand (and still remains a useful card).

FTS originally came into play dimmed, then was changed to undimmed (to make it like all other enchantments). Undimmed it became a monster card and people used it like crazy. Now that it stinks again, next to one will use it anymore. These five cards were rarely used (only Arid Encroachment with any regularity). Why? Because they weren't all that great. Now they've been made even worse.

As far as building changes go, I believe Mogi Nest also gained a health. I'm very surprised Hadarck's Fort wasn't balanced. It's a two vision building, with an awesome ability, with more health than most, and a mere MX4. The spire probably should have been bumped up in cost too. . .

I have not read the entire thread yet, but

+1 more vote for ascent should be 3 flux

supporting reasons:

1) It is less useful than lysis, so it shouldn't cost the same
(you may say it can do something lysis can not like ascending your own creature,
but I don't think that is significantly used as there are better ways like healing your creature.)

2) Ascent as it was using 2 flux wasn't that much of a problem and there're ways to counter it.
Like, you can force your opponent to use the ascent before you play big cards later
or try discarding your opponent before playing big cards.

3) I think the victim like hell cat just costs too much flux.

I think there's one forgotten card, not rebalanced, even though it is pretty strong..

"Animate Boulder"

with 2 casting flux and 16 lifes .. there is nothing you can do against this creature - it just wanders around and lets your enemy cast Volcanos and everything behind your lines...

(or tell me please some normal way how to get rid of it and not to spend half of game trying to do so)

/but to the rebalance; it made the game way harder for me (played Benefits of S. deck, not possible anymore) ..but after all, the game is at least fun again.. so I eventually like it

can we get all the changes pasted into an edited first post and stickied to the top of this forum?

Thinking again about ascent nerf, another card come to my mind....Negate

Ascent: 4flux 1 Domain

Negate: 1Flux 1 Domain

Ascent: U lose the flux, u have your card back
Negate: U lose your card, u have your flux back

Ascent only hits creatures
Negate hit entities, but only if its comes into play this turn

IMHO, Negate was better than ascent, and now negate is a loooooooooooooooooot better than ascent.

Following this balancing pattern, negate isnt a card to think about?

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