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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Ugly_Pug wrote:
- Re-read how the ladder works and how it is scored.


I won't. It is too complicated and does not support new and unexperienced players to get gold. Period.

Listen to my original proposal: if you feel like an Elite, get over 1300 rating and you can compete for "big" money with Uraxor, Cave Troll, Altren, Voices and others. If not, play in "others league" for much less money, and more fun.
AND
the newbies will always get newbie opponents. Becouse that league pays the less money and the more serious players won't play there (if only 1 account will be allowed per IP address in all ladders).

With 3 leagues you will get simplicity> you don't need complicated mathematic formulae to pair opponents. You may but don't have to make complicated scoring formulas. Take it simple: the first game against a player can get 50 ladder points, the second against the same player 40 and so on.

BTW: I agree that instead of #wins there should be only #PVP wins next to a players' name.


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:58 am 
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PredatOrc, I dislike attacking people in forums, so let me apologize in advance what I write here.
You say the ladder is bad and doesn’t do it’s job, that you don’t understand how the ladder works, and that you won’t try to understand how the ladder works. That seems to me to be the worst form of ignorance. If you don’t understand something, how can you say it is bad – unless by bad you mean that you personally don’t like it? If you don’t understand it, how can you credibly offer suggestions for improvement?
Similar game matching for ladder points is pretty easy to understand. You match people based on if their rating falls within in a range based on your rating and uncertainty. It is simple arithmetic; addition and subtraction is all the math needed. You gain or lose ladder points based on a formula which is a little complex, but not too horrible. If you don’t want to put in the time to understand how similar game matching and ladder points work, then listen to me because I have put in the time to understand them.
Low ranked players, be they new or bad and experienced, do not compete against good players in similar games. They compete against other low ranked players. You win or lose the ladder based on how you fare against other players of similar rating.
- If a low ranked player wins, that means he did well against other low ranked players. Of course, that means his/her rating is going up so the player must compete against a better class of opponents next week. Artificially keeping your rating low is self defeating for the reasons I listed earlier and also because doing so inevitably means you are losing to similar players which destroys your ladder ranking. I suspect this is one reason why you rarely see the same people win the ladder from week to week.
- If Cave Troll wins the ladder, it is because he spent the week beating up Altren, Voices, angelathiest, etc. - not against low ranked players. It is very difficult for him to do this for several reasons. First, there is not much company at such lofty heights. Elite players are elite for a reason. There are not many of them and this means fewer similar games for them. Fewer similar games means it is harder to get ladder points. Second, even if you are Cave Troll, it is not easy to beat those other guys… they are no slouches, you know. Third, CaveTroll is usually too busy decimating Domain leagues to worry about the ladder – more profit there.
This is evident by comparing ladder results to the Top 20 players list. Last week, Keyser, sexygamer, Uraxor, yaron, themist, Wrath of Gods, and nayen were the only people on the Top 20 list which won any gold in the ladder. Keyser was the top elite ladder winner with 58 gold. Combined, they won a total of 206 gold. Your proposal would permanently add another 3 elite names to the ladder winners and collectively guarantee them 400 gold instead of around 200 gold. This seems to me to transfer ladder wealth upwards instead of downwards. This is the 1st time I’ve directly compared ladder results to the Top 20 list, but I rarely notice players I consider elite at the top of the ladder. Therefore, I would expect last week’s results to be fairly typical. Also, I DO notice your name on the Top 20, but not the ladder. Perhaps you are more upset at not getting a share of the ladder than at how it works? Perhaps you are currently learning the hard way that reaching an elite level makes it harder to place on the ladder, for the reasons I listed above? Trust me… I wish I had your problem.
A few parting words…
1. The only time new players get similar matches against good players is when the account is brand new and at 1300. Once they get beat a few times, the ranking drops pretty quickly. I’ve said before new accounts should start lower… say around 900 or 1000. This is the best way to keep new players from getting similar games against good players. That said, with the way ladder points are awarded you don’t get many ladder points for destroying newbies.
2. Here was my suggestion for improving ladder matching. Please read if you have the time. It doesn’t address how ladder points are awarded… I think the current formula does it’s job very well. I do, however, think that game matching could be done better. Opinions and assholes, right? ;)
3. The purpose of the ladder is not to enable new and inexperienced players to get free gold. It rewards people who fare well against their peers within the game, whether they are new or experienced, good or bad. To me, it is most likely to be won by players people who have just learned how to beat their peers but done so recently enough to have not yet climbed into a better class of peers. This description better fits new players than experienced players. If you want the ladder to give gold to new players, then leave it alone. It is doing that pretty well right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:00 am 
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Ugly_Pug, I think you make many good points; however, I would like to disagree with this one:

Quote:
Artificially keeping your rating low is self defeating for the reasons I listed earlier and also because doing so inevitably means you are losing to similar players which destroys your ladder ranking. I suspect this is one reason why you rarely see the same people win the ladder from week to week.


No, it is not self-defeating for two reasons:

1) You can lose ranked non-ladder games to keep your ranking artificially low without impacting your ladder standing at all.

2) For those using multiple accounts (and yes, there are some), the accounts alternate winning and losing by week -- so the accounts beaten this week to prop up your score will yield you better points next week because the rating is lower. (Note, you can see some of this with the every-other week repetition of some of the ladder leaders.)

Without a doubt, there are many folks who do well without cheating. It is just frustrating that there are also quite clearly some folks who do cheat (quite obviously). I understand that preventing cheating is either impossible or will hurt legitimate players. But, there are certainly some things (see my earlier post as well as ideas from others) that will make cheating less easy. Frankly, I am very discouraged suspect that the ease of cheating is probably having a more adverse effect on player-retention than anything else (with the possible exception of when noobs are paired with strong players in ladder several times in a row).

Thanks,
KP


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:14 am 
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I have to agree with most of the things ugly_pug is saying, except I would add that it is quite obvious there are people making alts for the sole purpose of winning against other alts of theirs to get higher ladder score, but there's not much you can do about that I suppose unless/until a rule is made against it. But I especially agree that it seems like people only seem to complain about the ladder because they feel they are not getting enough gold from it and all of the suggestions seem to be things that help themselves....I personally think there are more important things the devs have to worry about then the ladder at the moment .


Also, it is not cheating so I don't see why it keeps being called that.

-Noob


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:11 am 
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Kinda bz, and didnt get to read everything so do forgive if i repeat stuff.

Quote:
You say the ladder is bad and doesn’t do it’s job, that you don’t understand how the ladder works, and that you won’t try to understand how the ladder works. That seems to me to be the worst form of ignorance. If you don’t understand something, how can you say it is bad – unless by bad you mean that you personally don’t like it? If you don’t understand it, how can you credibly offer suggestions for improvement?
Hear, Hear.

I cant say i agree with OP's suggestion of multiple ladders in that sense. I rather another way, similar but the same concept.
There is a general ladder, worth 1K gold. Its default that you joined it.
There is also another ladder, worth 500gold. You have to "sign up" for it, with atleast 100 wins. No rating limitations. You can only join one ladder, the 2nd one being the elite one and having its own lobby.

Now the special thing about the 2nd one is, that to be signed up, you need to be reccomended in by ONE other player. Each player can generate one invite once a week. If someone is caught cheating, the reccomending player's activities are also checked.
Also, you can win againts one player ONCE only a week. Your win loss numbers are displayed so people can see.

Now, 500gold is chicken feet right? Who cares about 500 bucks if you are 'leet'.
The thing is, it isnt atcually 500 gold, its more or less worth that. The prizes are the following:
1st Domain specific Booster of their choice
2nd Set specific Booster of their choice
3rd Shared booster, 1 rare, 1 uncommon, 1/2 the commons
4th Shared booster, 2 uncommons, 1/2 the commons.
5th-9th 1 uncommon each (assuming one uncommon is 10 gold worth, im not sure)
The rest, may recieve commons, as to balance out the amount of cards in circulation based on rarity....

Quote:
The purpose of the ladder is not to enable new and inexperienced players to get free gold. It rewards people who fare well against their peers within the game, whether they are new or experienced, good or bad.


True, but i do believe the newbies and mid-rankers should be allowed to grow without the leet pressuring them. Hence the above suggestion.

And do u guys remember the post i made last time about requirements before joining the ladder?
Its still a not bad idea, just this is a tiered one.

Quote:
I personally think there are more important things the devs have to worry about then the ladder at the moment .

You think cheating for gold isnt important? Lets say I cheat and get.... 300 gold a week. I dont have to pay TFW anything, and get about 2 boosters a week. Say i get bored in 6 mths, i sell everything for a tidy sum of cash.
Its cash literally stolen from the company, cash I believe is that aim for running this game. Also, i can probably sell it for less than they are selling, making them lose TWICE over.
(note, i have like a few cards, all having market history of being bought, except commons frmo uraxor and someone else)

Stopping cheating is possibly not important to some of us, cos, like its not an improvement/suggestions that seem to be things that help us(your quote paraphrased) as compared to new cards and graphics(that paying, non ladder people would enjoy), but i believe many of us do it cos we want to see a fair game, and that it benefits the game and community in the long run.


Also, i wanted to post a thread about how the points keep inflating. Drastically.
I have to wonder, is it cos the cheaters are getting more greedy, the game is growing, or are some ppl's skill increasing?


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:25 am 
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:mrgreen: I'd like to strongly agree with pug in regards to predatorcs comment about 3 teams ladder sections with most of the gold going to elites.

Quote:
Last week, Keyser, sexygamer, Uraxor, yaron, themist, Wrath of Gods, and nayen were the only people on the Top 20 list which won any gold in the ladder. Keyser was the top elite ladder winner with 58 gold. Combined, they won a total of 206 gold. Your proposal would permanently add another 3 elite names to the ladder winners and collectively guarantee them 400 gold instead of around 200 gold. This seems to me to transfer ladder wealth upwards instead of downwards.


no offense but obviously pug is right. It would be ridiculous to transfer wealth to those that already win EC nearly every time. I spend a good deal of time playing ladder and i believe there are cheaters too but ive seen most those names on more often than ive seen predatorc(no offense just stating what i know) :D . This is coming from someone thats been on basically everyday for the last 2 months. Ive played pug and kp and some of the top 20 ladder ppl.

Meanwhile everyone is using the word cheating, Whereas, its just loopholes in the game yet there are loopholes in other parts of the game (besides ladder) as well, Which many of the "Big Names" take advantage of and i can say this cause ive seen it happen. I dont have harsh feelings about it im just stating facts.

I think maybe a more efficient system is needed but until then im gonna enjoy the game and give thanks to the developers for making a game that doesnt cost a fortune and will allow Newer players to progress without TOO much effort, tho it might take some.

Also this isnt the place for this but id like to say i enjoyed the ecs on 5 hr rotations much better than the 8 hr rotations. On 5 hrs it was possible for a new player to come in and possibly, possibly, possibly win an ec cause i won 2 ecs as a brand new player with default decks on 5 hr rotations. but since the switch i havent seen anyone other than people from the top players list win. Of course those that are ahead will always be ahead slightly but at least the old system gave a bit of boost for newer players. (Just my opinion)

Thanks again to the developers for a great game - Monyx. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Zavia wrote:
Also, i wanted to post a thread about how the points keep inflating. Drastically.
I have to wonder, is it cos the cheaters are getting more greedy, the game is growing, or are some ppl's skill increasing?


You should've been on some 5 months ago, with still old ladder, where you were starting on 0 points, and getting over 200 pts was considered as really high.
1st week it was enough to get about 2k points for 100 gold.. 2nd it was already over 3k, 3rd the winner had 4,5k and the week after he got (he played fair, no cheating! And unfortunately it wasn't me, I was 2nd all the time.) bit over 6k ..
So try to get him and wish he won't return .. :)

Otherwise I really like Ugly_Pugs comments (though most of the 'Elites' is now strapped for gold as they've played and lost too many KCs.. just ask them :D) + I'd just implement that monitoring moves per game (rounds, whatever) if it's possible as someone (sorry, can't remember the name) has already suggested.. That'd force those cheaters to play normal games against their alts.. (10 rounds per game would still be considered too few). Or tracking who plays who how often..


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:52 pm 
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Quote:
You think cheating for gold isnt important? Lets say I cheat and get.... 300 gold a week. I dont have to pay TFW anything, and get about 2 boosters a week. Say i get bored in 6 mths, i sell everything for a tidy sum of cash.
Its cash literally stolen from the company, cash I believe is that aim for running this game. Also, i can probably sell it for less than they are selling, making them lose TWICE over.
(note, i have like a few cards, all having market history of being bought, except commons frmo uraxor and someone else)


You can "cheat" and win 1500 gold a week, get bored, leave and sell it. That is your prerogative. Now if it was actually cheating, then I would say you should not do it, but seeing as it is not cheating, I say it there's nothing wrong with it. the ladder is there so that people can get gold without having to pay cash, so how is that "stealing from the company" if they are giving it away?


also, zavia, your idea really would not help anything except guarantee the "leet" more gold/cards whatever, lessening the pot for anyone who doesn't already have 800 cards in their collection.

Quote:
Also this isnt the place for this but id like to say i enjoyed the ecs on 5 hr rotations much better than the 8 hr rotations.


I would have to say no one disagrees with this. However according to jed the gold (translated into power) that goes into ECs comes from the gold made off of the market taxes, so due to people not buying from market, there are less ECs

Quote:
I'd just implement that monitoring moves per game (rounds, whatever) if it's possible as someone (sorry, can't remember the name) has already suggested.. That'd force those cheaters to play normal games against their alts.. (10 rounds per game would still be considered too few). Or tracking who plays who how often..


I don't really understand what the point of this would be. Ban people who play each other too much or play with only 10 rounds per game? That would not make much since considering there is no rule against it. If you just wanted that information for everyone to see and yell at people who are "cheating", anyone doing the ladder in that way would use alts only, so no one knows who they really are and so it doesn't matter if they are yelled at. I just think this is a bit of a pointless concept.


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:38 am 
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Quote:
You should've been on some 5 months ago, with still old ladder, where you were starting on 0 points, and getting over 200 pts was considered as really high.

True dat.
I won a game once in a ladder a few mths ago, and got like 30+ gold with that single win. :D

Quote:
You can "cheat" and win 1500 gold a week, get bored, leave and sell it. That is your prerogative. Now if it was actually cheating, then I would say you should not do it, but seeing as it is not cheating, I say it there's nothing wrong with it. the ladder is there so that people can get gold without having to pay cash, so how is that "stealing from the company" if they are giving it away?

So... its not cheating? Well, some people call diffrent things cheating. Take exams. The ability to stealthy or game a system(student + examiner being friends) to get marks can be considered an ability thats on par with the ability to study. After all, contacts in the working world can get u further than your diploma.
But quite a few of us call it cheating, and think its a problem. If you dont, its your prerogative, but it is to us, and its our concern, and our wish to bring it up and discuss it.

Quote:
the ladder is there so that people can get gold without having to pay cash, so how is that "stealing from the company" if they are giving it away?

You are right, its to give gold freely to the players. Not to the player (singular). There is 1500 gold with.... quite a few positions, so MANY players can get a piece of the pie.
Its not 100 gold, top player only. Its lots of gold with many different prizes for different placings for many people to get a chance.
You are number 34th? Get x gold. You are number 4? Get xxx gold.
But if say 3 players use 10 alts each, with.... 50 farms somewhere being farmed...
The top 30 spots are to the 3 players, and the bottom single and probably teens digit are to the rest.

Tell me, is that againts the spirit of the ladder, to distribute the gold freely? Technically, its still distributing the gold, ill give you that. And yes, the company doesn't lose anything. And no, the rules, that i recall, didnt say you cant. All true and undeniable.
But its cheating to us who do ladder to get gold honestly.

Quote:
also, zavia, your idea really would not help anything except guarantee the "leet" more gold/cards whatever, lessening the pot for anyone who doesn't already have 800 cards in their collection.

The point that i think the OP was making was to take out the 1337 players, giving them their own ladder, so us newbies and upcoming 1337 players can breathe easier.
Thats the point i was going for with my idea. And the value is about the same(plus minus a bit), so there is no lessening of the total pot, except to let new upcoming 1337 players feel happy at the top abit, then want to upgrade to the big boys ladder, leaving more room for the small ones to continue to rise up.

Think how sports is, you dont have secondary school students playing in the same league as million dollar paid players do you? If ur good in the smaller competitions, they will invite you to the bigger ones, so on so forth.

So no worries, the idea is made so the 1337 has only a few good worthwhile spots at the top, but very valuable, while the 'minor' ladder has 1K spread out more evenly. There is no garuntee in either ladder, and the pot is the same. It still rewards players who are good, 800 cards or 5 cards.

Quote:
If you just wanted that information for everyone to see and yell at people who are "cheating", anyone doing the ladder in that way would use alts only, so no one knows who they really are and so it doesn't matter if they are yelled at. I just think this is a bit of a pointless concept.

I think we want to more than yell at them.
And if you are always using alts, then they become your main account no? You HAVE to transfer gold from your alts, if im correct on the system. So, find an alt, see where the last bunch of one way transactions are going, check that account, see how much one way transactions are going into that possible main acc... close it, and forfeit all the loot!

Again, its a pointless concept to someone who doesnt think its cheating. Np, there are lots of pointless threads in the whole of the internet. I stay away from them personally, cos, you know, they are pointless and not worth my time. Consider doing the same. Saved me lots of time personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Ladder again
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Zavia, you really don't understand what I am saying at all apparently, so please read what I am about to say very carefully. If there is no rule against something, it can not possibly be considered cheating. In your school example, there is a rule against looking at your friends paper and writing their answer, therefore it is considered cheating. But there is absolutely no rule against working the ladder. And seeing who is doing ladder work would be pointless for the following reason. If you banned an account for doing something that is not against any rule in of the game, I am sure that many people would not appreciate this, and would quit the game themselves. I personally do not really do the ladder often, as I am here for fun and not to sit in sim for hrs on end just to make some gold. However, if you do not like people doing this just because you are not making as much gold as you think you should be, do what they are doing and according to you you can be making upwards of 500 gold a week since you can just work 10 alts. The ladder system is inherently flawed, and any time a game is giving away free money basically, there will be people who abuse it...that is a fact of life.


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