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Power balance of cards
http://thefarwilds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=844		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Wicked [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Power balance of cards
Hi folks!
Let me start by asking this simple question: When is a card overpowered?

I believe a card is "unbalanced" when the effect of the card does not reflect the amount of resources used to play the card. It works both ways; if the effect is too weak the card is underpowered, and will not be touched by most experienced players. On the other hand if the effect of the card is more powerful than many other cards that require the same amount of resources, then the card is overpowered, and will be (ab)used a lot...

Out of curiosity I would like to know which card you believe is the most overpowered, underpowered or perfectly balanced. Please elaborate why you think that card has that power-balance.


~Wicked~
Author:  Agroagro [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
that is a pretty encompassing question.

To much for me to answer in entirety.


(un)balance and (over)power while similar are different things.

OP (overpowered) can be anything that is innately stronger then one would expect. it is a shine out amongst comparisons. but this not to say it doesnt fit into the games balance. for example one could argue lysis is op because it destroys any creature where closly costed sunburst only does 4 damage (note, thats not my opinion).

Balance (or lack of it) refers more to the games dynamics, and workings, in comparison of one group to another. one team not having an answer to a common situation would be an imbalance. But looking at our example above we can say the DL and LEmtl both have creature removal so they are balanced.

Both these comcepts are more complex then that. but that is one aspect of them. They are commonly mixed up especially by people who dont study game design.


as far as real example in our current meta game I dont think anything is blatantly imbalanced. I see some issues though with creature removal, and cheap effective cards abundant in some factions.

For overpowered id probably point to brass statue and living monument. but there are common answers for them so...


another balance issue is certain cards totally dominating the meta game. Slyvan for example, is so commonly used that one must be prepared for its rush or almost certainly lose. its almost guaranteed that you'll see bamboo watch towers and thistle falcons. The developers are stating thats the meta game. but id argue it causes imbalance because that one strategy eliminates some strategies for other decks because they have to dedicate part of their deck to answering them. where as the slyvan can pretty much dedicate their whole deck to the rushing strategy. Hopefully these kinks will be ironed out in coming expansion.
Author:  Loopy [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
I'd say Glory gaining cards tend to be way overpowered and unbalancing, especially for their cost. Take the Caravan for instance: 5 health makes it difficult to kill; 3 flux means it can be cast and recast every turn from the start of the game; 3 moves lets it run from many creatures; and 4 glory is twice the amount gained from controlling the most flux wells.

If any card needed to be nerfed, it's this one. Give it 4 health to make it a single spell kill, 4 flux to mean you need at least two wells to cast it every turn, 3 moves is okay because it's offset by the limited visibility, and drop the glory gained down to 2 or 3. Still an okay rare and it doesn't totally break combos, but it'd no longer the near unstoppable force it is right now.

Similarly, Benefits of a spectacle is a little cheaper than I'd like. Up the domain to EXX or the flux to 3, and make it give a glory every other spell or only once per round (fairly easy to do with tokens). Again, still useful, just not as broken.

Any time two or three card combos nearly guarantee a win, they're overpowered.
Author:  Haothehare [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
This question is a good one.

4 cards make the sylvan deck overpowered and unbalanced.

Ascent: This thing cost 2 flux!!! it's very overpowered. let's say I played a hell cat early game... it's 3 flux. I move my hell cat over to sylvan base... takes some rounds to do this. then he ascents it after playing his falcon. I get the card back into my hand and he wastes my 3 flux which I used to first play my hell cat. THEN i have to repay that 3 flux to use my hell cat again and not to mention this time it's back at my base. by the time I get my hell cat over to their base again they have their facon at my base killing my buildings and maybe even have 2 buildings and another creature or two. Ascent is the secret unbalancer of the sylvan deck that goes unnoticed.

Thistle Falcon: again for the cost of 2 flux you get a creature that only ranged units can hit normally, and only if you attack with it is there a chance for it to be harmed. Then you take into account that if it attacks a building on a water tile it can't be hit by land units anyway you get an invincible base destroyer all for the price of 2 flux. I'm sure this card is already noticed by everyone as being overpowered. It's unbelievably annoying to see a falcon destroy your base while flying over a water tile. Most other factions don't have range early game. And if you're playing as a darklegion there's only a very few units that can attack a falcon (ghost ship, barbed necrath, fire beetle, yalrinian fiend, and carrion feeder AFTER it gobbles at least one corpse.. notice, all these creatures are mid or late game creatures. that means that a pure sylvan deck will DESTROY a pure darklegion deck 2 times out of 3). Unbalanced AND overpowered. Change thistle falcon's cost to 4 flux and there will be far less complaints. because 2 flux is waay too cheap for what it can do.

Charm: This thing is insane late game, but not a lot of players get to see how insane this is because ascent + thistle falcon + entangle already brings other faction decks to their knees so much so that very rarely does anyone have to face this card, but I got to this card and I almost puked/cried. for 4 flux you gain control of one of the enemy's creatures. think about this for a second. It's a great card to have but for 4 flux??? if I played for example a creature that cost me 3 flux like a hell cat, charm makes me lose it, which means I lose the 3 flux it cost to play it. Then the player gains control of that cat for the rest of it's lifespan, that's 3 MORE flux worth gone to them, also it's already out and in a good position for battle so that's more advantage lost to the sylvan player. So when charm is used on a 3 flux creature the sylvan player gains a 6 flux advantage over his opponent for a net gain of 2. Now if it was a 5 flux creature like journeyman necromancer, then the sylvan player gains a 10 flux advantage for the net gain of 6. AND not to mention the strategic advantage of having more creatures ALREADY... the heavy hitter that they take control of was most likely going to defend the player's base or had some very important job to do. Charm = GG in most situations. This card should cost at least 6 or 7 flux for it to be balanced.


Entangle: for 2 flux you make any unit useless when they're not on desert or water... that's insane... lysis cost 4 flux, with 4 flux you can ascent AND entangle ... waaay too cheap... increase the flux cost to 4 for both ascent and entangle please.
Author:  CaveTroll [ Thu May 28, 2009 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
I think morph is OP. This is a card that would be used even if it had a 4 flux casting cost and three level domain requirement. To be able to get u a copy of one of your strongest creatures, like barkskin dragon, for only three flux is great. As a bonus you get it in to play whithout the damage the original creature has recieved! I'm using three of this for sure once i can get some.
Author:  Hithlum [ Fri May 29, 2009 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
The most OP card? That's easy. Vapor Mahal. 4 mana, 2 vision, gives domain, damages itself slowly, but when it is destroyed you draw it again. Can't get any better.
Author:  decapattack [ Fri May 29, 2009 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
Hithlum wrote:
The most OP card? That's easy. Vapor Mahal. 4 mana, 2 vision, gives domain, damages itself slowly, but when it is destroyed you draw it again. Can't get any better.


Strongly agreed!!!!!!!!!

Suggestion: Reduce to 1 vision
Author:  Faxos [ Fri May 29, 2009 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
I agree. Vapor is the fundamental card of my building-based deck (I should say "my only deck") and as far as I have seen of many recent successful decks. It lasts little, but more than enough to gain 2 squares and drop something more stable (either a beacon or a fort and get a flux, for instance).
Difficult to change: reducing vision to 1 would make it simply useless. Personally I think it would be fair changing its ability in something like "if destroyed it goes to the bottom of your deck unless it took damage from an opponent that round". But are these cards still being discussed and subject to changes? I thought they could be considered "fixed", now.
Author:  decapattack [ Fri May 29, 2009 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
Faxos wrote:
Difficult to change: reducing vision to 1 would make it simply useless.


I disagree. So what u say about graveyard, grove and stuff? Its not useless. When the game starts, your opponent must to spent 13-14 flux to make 2 domain u spent 14 to make two domain AND put a Flame "Eat Buildings" Ent in play. Its not useless.

U can start with mahal and mogi AND cast a second 7 flux domain building at 2nd round. Its not useless.

U can use few mahal and have your elemental domain granted. U will NEVER be without ELE Domain.

Faxos wrote:
I agree. Vapor is the fundamental card of my building-based decknow.


Strongly agreed again. And thats the point. I think the main building deck version is a lit bit unbalanced because this card. Or u play around this deck or u will lose to this deck. I think this change can fix the problem.

Sorry for the poor english ;) ;) ;)
Author:  Loopy [ Fri May 29, 2009 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Power balance of cards
Let's list Vapor's strengths and weaknesses.

Pro:
1) Low flux cost.
2) Two vision.
3) Destroying places it on the bottom of your deck.

Con:
1) Deals self damage (making it easier to kill and it doesn't stick around).
2) No salvage.

Neutral:
1) Grants domain.
2) Building base.
3) Destroyed as a building site means destroyed.

Given that the Vapor needs to be recast repeatedly to maintain control of a well and that its flux cost is above 3, it's not too unbalanced. Over its lifetime, it pretty much just returns the amount of mana it took to cast, provided it's not damaged by anything. Its weakness means that a tremor or volcano on the turn it's cast sends it back. The lack of salvage means it's fairly expensive to keep recasting when destroyed.

It's pretty much in line with other "overpowered" elemental cards like the sleet mogi or lightning elemental. When you're getting beat by them they look overpowered, when you try to play them, you see how expensive they can be to maintain and their weaknesses.

I'd say it's on par with its counterparts of the great oak and bone fortress. Oak has trade of vision for one less health. Bone has trade off of visibility and growth for two less health.

If you want an overpowered building look no further than the ivory spire. Controlling 3 flux wells is potentially +3 flux a turn, negating its cost penalty. It definitely needs to cost more, see less, or lose more health.
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