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emancipate
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:07 am |
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 9:17 pm Posts: 119 Location: behind you eating your cookies...
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angelatheist wrote: good job on the changes, it will take some work to find the real broken cards now. I'd also like to point out that only global enchantments ever came into play undimmed so Foul Termite Swarm and the like haven't been changed. The only cards this actually changed in Arid Encroachment which I do think was off since it didn't act like other enchantments.
Building changes: Bamboo Watch Tower: 2 flux -> 3 flux Beacon of Calendor: S -> SS Emerald Spring: 3 flux-> 4flux, -1 health Dank Pit: 2 flux -> 3 flux Exhausted Mine: M -> MX + ability changed Magnetite Beacon: 2 flux -> 3 flux Ord Stone: no change Walled Outpost: 3 flux -> 4 flux Mogi Nest: 3 flux -> 4 flux Vapor Mahal: 4 flux -> 5 flux Foul Obelisk: D->DX
I think thats a fairly complete list of the building changes, if i missed anything or made a mistake let me know Bronze Statue: 7 -> 8 too bad now glimps of greatness combo wouldnt work anymore
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Rufio
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:20 am |
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Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:44 pm Posts: 28
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decapattack wrote: Thinking again about ascent nerf, another card come to my mind....Negate
Ascent: 4flux 1 Domain
Negate: 1Flux 1 Domain
Ascent: U lose the flux, u have your card back Negate: U lose your card, u have your flux back
Ascent only hits creatures Negate hit entities, but only if its comes into play this turn
IMHO, Negate was better than ascent, and now negate is a loooooooooooooooooot better than ascent.
Following this balancing pattern, negate isnt a card to think about? Negate can only target things that come into play on rounds though, so if you can't see it then it is stuck in your hand.
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angelatheist
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:28 am |
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Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:00 am Posts: 150
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Rufio wrote: decapattack wrote: Thinking again about ascent nerf, another card come to my mind....Negate
Ascent: 4flux 1 Domain
Negate: 1Flux 1 Domain
Ascent: U lose the flux, u have your card back Negate: U lose your card, u have your flux back
Ascent only hits creatures Negate hit entities, but only if its comes into play this turn
IMHO, Negate was better than ascent, and now negate is a loooooooooooooooooot better than ascent.
Following this balancing pattern, negate isnt a card to think about? Negate can only target things that come into play on rounds though, so if you can't see it then it is stuck in your hand. ascent was much much much better than negate was, there is a huge difference between hitting something anytime and only the first turn; With negate they get the flux back immediately but ascent does not return the card until its about to do something, so you can spend 3 turns moving your blunderbuss squad over to your opponent only to have it hit by ascent, suddenly you're at a huge disadvantage. also the flux difference is huge, with negate you are always down 1 flux but ascent you pretty much always come out ahead. the card back from ascent actually makes very little impact.
_________________ ȁ̎̉̈̂̎͋̈́̍n͂͑̿ͥͣ́̓ġͤ͑ͯe͌̓̊ͩ͗̅l̽̓ͬͬͥ̊͗aͣ̔̃ͧ̓̾̾t͊̑̆hͤ͆̓̉̌ͣ̚e̋ͩ͒̈́ĭ̌̒̎ͧ̓̋ͪs̋ͤͧ̅̇̋̎ͫ̂̾ͨ̽̄ͫͯt͒͐̌ͭ̂̃ͪ̽ͣ͗̒ͣ
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FiestaVaca
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:24 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:11 pm Posts: 2
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mindstheatre wrote: I quoted FiestaVaca at the top because I believe it represents a fundamental flaw in the understanding of online card games. Many people may hate me for this, but I'll go ahead and say it: there's no such thing as a balanced card game of this nature. There will always be certain combinations of cards which work better than others in the cost-benefit analysis. As has been my belief from the beginning, it is impossible to alter a single card in this game without changing two dozen more in perhaps a fool's errand attempt at balancing. That will only increase with the number of expansions released, the assumed addition of two new domains at some point in the future, and the exponential increase in exploitable combos.
...
ALL OF THAT BEING SAID AS AN INTRODUCTION, I support these changes not because they balance the game, but because they force the strategy into a direction that the devs I believe had in mind - and one which I believe should be the central focus of the game. Buildings take a little bit longer to get out, so you need to play a little bit more "defense" if that ever existed in TFW before. Sylvan rush becomes slightly more difficult, and the all-too-permanent effects of enchantments can in some way be countered, even if only for a turn. Does the change for Benefits of Spectacle kill the card? Not at all, but it certainly is no longer an alternative winning strategy. You still gotta conquer flux wells, you still gotta build buildings. And that, at the end of the day, is what TFW was supposed to be about in my mind.
The developers have the power and right to make changes to cards - particularly this early in the game's life - which direct the strategy in the way they had envisioned. For that reason, and that reason alone, I think these changes make sense. Very interesting argument, and there's no way I can argue efficiently against it. That being said, I'm in the same boat as you in supporting these changes, especially this early on, but I think I'll also have to agree with your fundamental belief on the whole "balance doesn't exist" attitude with online card games. Well done:)
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doiron
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:29 pm |
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:04 pm Posts: 348
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While it's certainly true that perfect balance doesn't exist, the case could certainly be made that sylvan were overly dominating because of certain cards that were adjusted. I've already noticed more non-sylvan decks the past few days, which to me is a very good thing.
I think the changes were essential for the game to continue. If your future creature design is based around how cheap ascent was, for example, no one would really ever play high-cost 1 domain creatures (which is what was happening).
The building tweaks I also heartily support. Vision was way underpriced.
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UBER
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:33 am |
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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:38 am Posts: 315
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Well, people are still mad about the changes.
Now MF is the strongest. But thats fine. Its normal for a certain domain to be stronger. Thats just life.
However. To prevent people from getting angry with the new set.. you should give everyone 3 phantom cards of every card in the new set so they can beta test them. It will also ease in the new change of the economy with the cards. In fact I dont see any other good way to go about it unless you plan to do a mid set rebalnce again.. which turned out poorly. Not neccesarily in the way they were balanced, but the way the people were overall pleased with a balance at all. I beleive cards are automatically balanced in the way that everyone can use them.
Also.
Do not compare ascent to negate. Ascent is fine as is.. Now charm may not drop so much in price. Id avoid continually balancing the game. Its much better to spend your energy releasing new sets. Maybe MF will have a certain weakness with the new ones? Ill avoid leaving any false hopes here on what because I dont know. But i could request more 1 or 2 life high attack creatures?
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angelatheist
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:06 am |
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Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:00 am Posts: 150
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I think giving every card to everyone is a bad idea from a marketing standpoint. A large part of the reason people pay money for cards is that they havent been able to play with them before, giving cards to everyone removes this incentive. The better way to balance the set is to actively try to break cards that have an unusual effect and keep track of decks that do well and look for the cards that get played the most frequently.
_________________ ȁ̎̉̈̂̎͋̈́̍n͂͑̿ͥͣ́̓ġͤ͑ͯe͌̓̊ͩ͗̅l̽̓ͬͬͥ̊͗aͣ̔̃ͧ̓̾̾t͊̑̆hͤ͆̓̉̌ͣ̚e̋ͩ͒̈́ĭ̌̒̎ͧ̓̋ͪs̋ͤͧ̅̇̋̎ͫ̂̾ͨ̽̄ͫͯt͒͐̌ͭ̂̃ͪ̽ͣ͗̒ͣ
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kash
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:09 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 12:08 am Posts: 173
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UBER wrote: Well, people are still mad about the changes.
Now MF is the strongest. But thats fine. Its normal for a certain domain to be stronger. Thats just life.
However. To prevent people from getting angry with the new set.. you should give everyone 3 phantom cards of every card in the new set so they can beta test them. It will also ease in the new change of the economy with the cards. In fact I dont see any other good way to go about it unless you plan to do a mid set rebalnce again.. which turned out poorly. Not neccesarily in the way they were balanced, but the way the people were overall pleased with a balance at all. I beleive cards are automatically balanced in the way that everyone can use them.
Also.
Do not compare ascent to negate. Ascent is fine as is.. Now charm may not drop so much in price. Id avoid continually balancing the game. Its much better to spend your energy releasing new sets. Maybe MF will have a certain weakness with the new ones? Ill avoid leaving any false hopes here on what because I dont know. But i could request more 1 or 2 life high attack creatures? I think MF has been the strongest for some time now. It was just much less forgiving than sylvan in terms of both deck construction and play. Now that a few sylvan cards have been changed so that the early game play style isn't so obvious (most notably moving beacon to SS), more people with some experience under their belts are giving MF a try. As far as beta, I think a short public beta is ok to build excitement about the new set (I've seen it done for a week or so where everyone had access to all the cards). It didn't seem to hurt demand any. If anything, people found awesome new cards they just had to buy. Not much in the way of useful testing ever comes from it though. I think the second set will go much smoother than the first though. There is always a learning curve and some mistakes in the initial balance of the game (I mean things like underpricing vision rather than a few cards that are off). Now that a lot of the issues with mechanics are sorted out, there should be fewer overpowered cards created initially. There is also a pool of experienced players now. The original beta for the game is, pretty much by definition, a bunch of inexperienced people trying to figure things out. Now people have hundreds or thousands of games under there belt, and a smallish private beta can be enormously effective in catching most of the balance problems before a set is released. These are pretty standard for other online CCGs. I'm assuming such a beta is in the works or even possibly already ongoing.
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RadicalRat
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:07 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:32 am Posts: 22
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I was a bit sad to see the list of these "balancing" changes. About ascent, it's true that it was partly to blame for high flux-cost creatures being fairly useless. But a cost of 4?? Honestly, who will use it now? And then the mahal, flux-cost of 5 makes it almost useless, since casting it again and again is way too costly now for most decks. I don't even think it was overpowered to begin with. In the long run, you lose a lot of flux and draws trying to keep mahals in play.
With some of their main assets, the Malal, benefits and arid enroachment(?) made worse, the whole Elemental domain is now even weaker than before, and it wasn't comparable to the others even before. On the other hand, MF received a considerable power-up, as some people already mentioned. MF has the best high flux creatures, and now they are safe to play with ascents basically flushed down the toilet. They had one of the best vision-2 buildings, the fort, but it wasn't changed like the others. This is very bad, since MF was already easily the most versatile faction out there and all MF decks were in my opinion already better than other mono-domain decks (ok maybe not better than all S, but more versatile).
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alphabetsupes
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Post subject: Re: Balancing Changes Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:20 pm |
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:28 pm Posts: 64
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RadicalRat wrote: I was a bit sad to see the list of these "balancing" changes. About ascent, it's true that it was partly to blame for high flux-cost creatures being fairly useless. But a cost of 4?? Honestly, who will use it now? And then the mahal, flux-cost of 5 makes it almost useless, since casting it again and again is way too costly now for most decks. I don't even think it was overpowered to begin with. In the long run, you lose a lot of flux and draws trying to keep mahals in play. Fixing Mahal was hugely important. IMO it was one of the strongest cards in the game at its previous cost, along with bamboo tower and beacon of celador, especially in draft but also in constructed. they were just too cheap for their effects. Remember that Mahal ensures that in a VERY long game in which many buildings die, you will never run out of buildings. That in itself breaks a fundamental rule of the game in a way that no other card does. Sure, there are a few ways of stopping the cycle of Mahals, but not consistently, and although this wouldn't have been an issue in a matchup against sylvan, in control vs control matchups (especially involving volcanoes, tremors, etc), having mahals to keep replaying in the late game is quite important.
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